Did some digging yesterday and drew up a comparison between SFA and Angelo State.

SFA
Budget, 2021: $262 million
Students, 2021: ~11,946
Students, 2012: 12,999

Angelo State (joined Texas Tech system in 2007)
Budget, 2021: $132 million
Students, 2021: ~10,775
Students, 2012: 6,921

Angelo State is about to rocket past SFA. My thoughts:

1. Angelo State is booming in enrollment, pays its faculty and staff better than SFA, and with half the money. How? Where is all the money going at SFA?
2. Why do systems want us? Well, we pull in lots of revenue for our size, but clearly SFA does not spend it efficiently. If a system can bring the expertise needed to "fix" that, then it will be a huge positive and maybe SFA can start growing again.
3. On social media, some alumni are pushing to stay independent out of what looks to be pride. I get that, but I believe that if SFA stays independent, enrollment will continue to drop and we'll be <10,000 students by the end of this decade. (Fall 2022 enrollment will end up being around 11,350, down 600 students from last year).

NacMan said:

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Did some digging yesterday and drew up a comparison between SFA and Angelo State.

SFA
Budget, 2021: $262 million
Students, 2021: ~11,946
Students, 2012: 12,999

Angelo State (joined Texas Tech system in 2007)
Budget, 2021: $132 million
Students, 2021: ~10,775
Students, 2012: 6,921

Angelo State is about to rocket past SFA. My thoughts:

1. Angelo State is booming in enrollment, pays its faculty and staff better than SFA, and with half the money. How? Where is all the money going at SFA?
2. Why do systems want us? Well, we pull in lots of revenue for our size, but clearly SFA does not spend it efficiently. If a system can bring the expertise needed to "fix" that, then it will be a huge positive and maybe SFA can start growing again.
3. On social media, some alumni are pushing to stay independent out of what looks to be pride. I get that, but I believe that if SFA stays independent, enrollment will continue to drop and we'll be <10,000 students by the end of this decade. (Fall 2022 enrollment will end up being around 11,350, down 600 students from last year).

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I've seen some of this information. I'll do some research because I don't think it's accurate

One thing I will say. The common refrain from faculty and staff at SFA seems to be : Our students are weak. Our alumni are idiots. We don't have forward thinking leadership. On and on and on.

I think SFA should join a system. It will provide financial stability and bring prestige. The system could even bring in some proven marketing folks. The tradeoff is SFA loses some control. The SFA BOR ceases to exist and the University is a cog in a larger machine.

I'm not trying to dismiss the faculty and staffs concerns but this sounds like employees at every company, especially those that work with the public. I once overheard a Chick-fil-A employee say customers were idiots, the store managers where inept and corporate was clueless.

SFA88 said:

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I think SFA should join a system. It will provide financial stability and bring prestige. The system could even bring in some proven marketing folks. The tradeoff is SFA loses some control. The SFA BOR ceases to exist and the University is a cog in a larger machine.

I'm not trying to dismiss the faculty and staffs concerns but this sounds like employees at every company, especially those that work with the public. I once overheard a Chick-fil-A employee say customers were idiots, the store managers where inept and corporate was clueless.

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I agree. I've looked at the metrics on the THECB site. SFA is not inefficient. Numerous schools in our size range have larger budgets. Texas Southern for one. (enrollment has dropped from 11k to 8k in 3 years ). Cherry picking is what we call it in my industry.

I got the budget numbers for Angelo and SFA directly from the respective University budget websites. The 2012 enrollment numbers I got from Wikipedia, and the 2021 enrollment numbers were from official university news releases.

I don't think SFA students are weak, nor are SFA alumni idiots. I do think, though, that SFA has an institutional culture that devalues its staff and faculty. The university has conducted multiple salary studies including one just 2 years ago showing that SFA salaries are next-to-last out of all 38 public universities in the state, below only tiny Sul Ross.

Nac man's information doesn't tell the story apples to apples . If you want a better picture of funding PER FTSE per full time student equivalent, go to the THECB site look under data and reports You can see a breakdown of SFA vs all 4 year institutions. I won't preach the entire list, you can read for yourself but here's a couple of examples: Lamar gets $13000/FTSE SFA gets $10,600. Plenty of data to pour over. The fact remains that most of the 4 year comprehensive universities in Texas are underfunded. Basically SFA is in the middle in terms of funding. We house a lot of students in old dorms so we have some miscellaneous funding from that side. Otherwise we are funded roughly the same as other in our size range.

NacMan said:

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I got the budget numbers for Angelo and SFA directly from the respective University budget websites. The 2012 enrollment numbers I got from Wikipedia, and the 2021 enrollment numbers were from official university news releases.

I don't think SFA students are weak, nor are SFA alumni idiots. I do think, though, that SFA has an institutional culture that devalues its staff and faculty. The university has conducted multiple salary studies including one just 2 years ago showing that SFA salaries are next-to-last out of all 38 public universities in the state, below only tiny Sul Ross.

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For the record , I support SFA joining a system. Either Texas Tech or Texas State. I don't think either move will solve the problems that you have astutely noted. Imho the problem is simple. The state of Texas has way to many universities to support.

California has approximately 32 CSU & UC system campuses. Texas has close to 40 universities with 73% of the population.

BigJack85 said:

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Nac man's information doesn't tell the story apples to apples . If you want a better picture of funding PER FTSE per full time student equivalent, go to the THECB site look under data and reports You can see a breakdown of SFA vs all 4 year institutions. I won't preach the entire list, you can read for yourself but here's a couple of examples: Lamar gets $13000/FTSE SFA gets $10,600. Plenty of data to pour over. The fact remains that most of the 4 year comprehensive universities in Texas are underfunded. Basically SFA is in the middle in terms of funding. We house a lot of students in old dorms so we have some miscellaneous funding from that side. Otherwise we are funded roughly the same as other in our size range.

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I found the SFA $10,600 number in the Texas Higher Ed Almanac 2021, but it shows the Lamar number to be $10,463. Those numbers aren't funding, but are Tuition & Fees only. Our tuition is about the same as Lamar and Sam Houston (which are bigger schools). SFA's tuition is higher than Tarleton, UT-Tyler, Angelo St., A&M-Commerce, A&M-Corpus Christi, and West Texas A&M, who are all closer to us in size. For all his other faults, former President Gordon regularly pointed out to campus groups that SFA's tuition was in the upper third out of all Texas public universities. We are expensive.

I agree with you on the need to join a system. If nothing else, it allows us to lobby more efficiently as part of a bigger unit.

NacMan said:

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BigJack85 said:

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Nac man's information doesn't tell the story apples to apples . If you want a better picture of funding PER FTSE per full time student equivalent, go to the THECB site look under data and reports You can see a breakdown of SFA vs all 4 year institutions. I won't preach the entire list, you can read for yourself but here's a couple of examples: Lamar gets $13000/FTSE SFA gets $10,600. Plenty of data to pour over. The fact remains that most of the 4 year comprehensive universities in Texas are underfunded. Basically SFA is in the middle in terms of funding. We house a lot of students in old dorms so we have some miscellaneous funding from that side. Otherwise we are funded roughly the same as other in our size range.

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I found the SFA $10,600 number in the Texas Higher Ed Almanac 2021, but it shows the Lamar number to be $10,463. Those numbers aren't funding, but are Tuition & Fees only. Our tuition is about the same as Lamar and Sam Houston (which are bigger schools). SFA's tuition is higher than Tarleton, UT-Tyler, Angelo St., A&M-Commerce, A&M-Corpus Christi, and West Texas A&M, who are all closer to us in size. For all his other faults, former President Gordon regularly pointed out to campus groups that SFA's tuition was in the upper third out of all Texas public universities. We are expensive.

I agree with you on the need to join a system. If nothing else, it allows us to lobby more efficiently as part of a bigger unit.

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Everyone is evil……. LOL.

This is off topic but just to bring some levity to these serious discussions, I remember when we students were angry because the BOR had voted to increase tuition above the $4 per credit hour we were paying.

Jacks4460 said:

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Talk to some higher ups and it looks like UT with no name change or a UT Stephen F Austin name.. UT has 2/3 of state monies from the Oil and Gas induStry fund called the POOF fund or names something like that.. UT system gets 6 million $$ a day from the royalties in oil and gas.. we are shopping ourselves… show me the money because ultimately that is what it's all about and UT system can provide us the most..

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I like it. I like it a lot.

Permanent University Fund (PUF) Quick Facts:

• The Texas constitution stipulates that The University of Texas system gets two-thirds of the benefits of the PUF and the Texas A&M system gets one-third.
• The PUF endowment is managed by The University of Texas/Texas A&M Investment Management Company (UTIMCO), under the authority of the UT System Board of Regents, and the land is managed by the University Lands office.
• The Constitution allows the UT System to issue bonds guaranteed by the AUF in an amount equal to 20% of the book value of the PUF.
• PUF bonds may be issued for the benefit of all 13 UT System institutions, but may only be used to finance capital expenditures.
• The PUF also benefits the UT and A&M institutions through an annual distribution of revenue from PUF investment returns to the Available University Fund (AUF). The size of the distribution is usually five percent or less of the market value of PUF investments, and the distribution may not exceed seven percent.
• The Texas Constitution requires that AUF first be used to pay principal and interest on PUF bonds, but the remainder may be used to support and maintain UT Austin and UT System Administration. The Constitution does not allow AUF to be used for operational expenses for the other UT System institutions.

Ran some numbers on the growth rates in enrollment in each system:

Have started putting together some numbers on the enrollment growth rates in each system SFA is looking at. pic.twitter.com/RmCI2C4KTN

— Peyton 🧂 Governor of East Texas (@PeytonWXYZ) August 27, 2022

I agree with you Texan..

BigJack85 said:

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I imagine it will November or December before we have a real idea. Personally, if it was UT Stephen F Austin, I'd be disappointed. Stephen F Austin a member of the University of Texas System, would be fine.

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They have a proposed timeline & I think it was in the email sent out. Definitely by end of semester but I think I remember something about October....? I deleted the email after I submitted some feedback.
I think the choice has already been made.

Do we have any idea on what the systems are proposing?

TallTexan said:

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Do we have any idea on what the systems are proposing?

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Good question…..

TallTexan said:

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Tech is mixed, as Midwestern isn't growing.

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MSU didn't join Tech until last year, so I don't think that statistic is meaningful in this situation.

wahlwesle said:

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TallTexan said:

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Tech is mixed, as Midwestern isn't growing.

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MSU didn't join Tech until last year, so I don't think that statistic is meaningful in this situation.

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Ah, gotcha. I woulda sworn they've been there 5 years or more. I thought Angelo St was the more recent addition.

Well that makes me feel better. I just have a good inkling about the Tech system long term. But it's so early in it's life as a true System.

And to paraphrase an old technology industry quote, nobody ever got fired for picking the UT system.

I've narrowed down some really cool stats from the Texas Almanac of higher ed. Going to try to add in graduation rates & see if I can find professor salaries on average as well since I'm sure our profs would like to know that.

TallTexan said:

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wahlwesle said:

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TallTexan said:

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Tech is mixed, as Midwestern isn't growing.

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MSU didn't join Tech until last year, so I don't think that statistic is meaningful in this situation.

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Ah, gotcha. I woulda sworn they've been there 5 years or more. I thought Angelo St was the more recent addition.

Well that makes me feel better. I just have a good inkling about the Tech system long term. But it's so early in it's life as a true System.

And to paraphrase an old technology industry quote, nobody ever got fired for picking the UT system.

I've narrowed down some really cool stats from the Texas Almanac of higher ed. Going to try to add in graduation rates & see if I can find professor salaries on average as well since I'm sure our profs would like to know that.

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One important factor that the data doesn't capture. The cost of living. In particular, the cost of housing. Nacogdoches probably is one of the lowest cost housing markets in the state. Lower housing costs really leverage the actual pay UP 10% - 20%

Average professor salaries by system. pic.twitter.com/PCN3QCoggR

— Peyton 🧂 Governor of East Texas (@PeytonWXYZ) August 28, 2022

SFA Jack Fanatic said:

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Good article, but not much that we didn't already know. Thanks for sharing, Minnjack.

One contributor in the article stated that the Texas State system would be the best place to land. Personally, I disagree.

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I thought the article said "Texas State University seemed like a natural fit" Shared culture.

I will just say this about the Texas State System.... My dad was a professor at SH for 35 years and worked under that System. If it was not for the funding and other numerous benefits that TSUS provided to SH, they would not be where they are today!!! SFA may fit better in another System, but there is absolutely no reason that TSUS would not benefit SFA significantly!!