We are near the bottom of SFA basketball since about 2008
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
SFA / Houston Christian
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Last: 6 min ago by SFASawmillGuy
nacluth said:
83-73 HCU final. WORST CONFERENCE START THIS CENTURY.
LEAVE KELLER ON THE STREET! Let the Assistants do some work. Clearly a better game plan than what Keller is doing.
nacluth said:
83-73 HCU final. WORST CONFERENCE START THIS CENTURY.
It's near the bottom. Sad.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
This hurts. It is what it is. We don't have the overall talent this year. Feel bad for the players and coaches. I want Keller to succeed. But the talent is just not there. There's no fiddle in the band.
Coach needs to do the right thing. In the best interest of the program he needs to fall on the sword.
No-look said:
This hurts. It is what it is. We don't have the overall talent this year. Feel bad for the players and coaches. I want Keller to succeed. But the talent is just not there. There's no fiddle in the band.
I don't get why yall are saying we don't have talent this year. We do have talent. Just not using them to their strengths. We are just getting master classes by better shooters. Defense isn't going to win us the game actually shooting the ball and ball movement.
No-look said:
This hurts. It is what it is. We don't have the overall talent this year. Feel bad for the players and coaches. I want Keller to succeed. But the talent is just not there. There's no fiddle in the band.
There's no other way to put it. We are awful. No time for introspection. .
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
Sometimes, sometimes
Sometimes bad is bad
Aah, dit, dit, dit, dit, dit
Doo wop, wop
-Huey Lewis and The News
Sometimes bad is bad
Aah, dit, dit, dit, dit, dit
Doo wop, wop
-Huey Lewis and The News
No I mean that it actually is the worst. No team this century has start 0-4 in conference play.BigJack85 said:nacluth said:
83-73 HCU final. WORST CONFERENCE START THIS CENTURY.
It's near the bottom. Sad.
nacluth said:No I mean that it actually is the worst. No team this century has start 0-4 in conference play.BigJack85 said:nacluth said:
83-73 HCU final. WORST CONFERENCE START THIS CENTURY.
It's near the bottom. Sad.
I believe you 100%. I hope we don't have further to drop. Which seems likely.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
What we have seen is what we got. Team has played the same all year, decent defense but no scoring. It's not going to change. This coaching staff and team will need a complete rebuild. Without change, there won't be any improvement.
This reminds me of when Harper was football coach. As soon as he lost Moses and others to graduation, the talent went down and Harper was obviously just going through the motions and the W-L record went south. Appears Keller is at that same point. Supported Keller for years but last year was bad, then half the team wanted to leave and this season is a bust. Very hard to find many or any good points to discuss. Whether it is that Keller and staff have "lost" the control or loyalty of the players or if our talent level is below par, the results are poor and unacceptable if our goal is to win in the SLC and make some NCAA Dances. Not going to happen without some wholesale changes.
This reminds me of when Harper was football coach. As soon as he lost Moses and others to graduation, the talent went down and Harper was obviously just going through the motions and the W-L record went south. Appears Keller is at that same point. Supported Keller for years but last year was bad, then half the team wanted to leave and this season is a bust. Very hard to find many or any good points to discuss. Whether it is that Keller and staff have "lost" the control or loyalty of the players or if our talent level is below par, the results are poor and unacceptable if our goal is to win in the SLC and make some NCAA Dances. Not going to happen without some wholesale changes.
SCH890 said:No-look said:
This hurts. It is what it is. We don't have the overall talent this year. Feel bad for the players and coaches. I want Keller to succeed. But the talent is just not there. There's no fiddle in the band.
I don't get why yall are saying we don't have talent this year. We do have talent. Just not using them to their strengths. We are just getting master classes by better shooters. Defense isn't going to win us the game actually shooting the ball and ball movement.
If another team has better shooters, by very definition that means they are more talented than us.
Hence…we aren't that talented.
Haha, that's true. It seems like a drastic drop-off for all our players, especially the transfers. Something is different about the style of play. Plus, I would have never guessed we would have Christmas shooting three-pointers, but yet here we are.MasterAxe2 said:SCH890 said:No-look said:
This hurts. It is what it is. We don't have the overall talent this year. Feel bad for the players and coaches. I want Keller to succeed. But the talent is just not there. There's no fiddle in the band.
I don't get why yall are saying we don't have talent this year. We do have talent. Just not using them to their strengths. We are just getting master classes by better shooters. Defense isn't going to win us the game actually shooting the ball and ball movement.
If another team has better shooters, by very definition that means they are more talented than us.
Hence…we aren't that talented.
Ljacks&Longnecks said:
What we have seen is what we got. Team has played the same all year, decent defense but no scoring. It's not going to change. This coaching staff and team will need a complete rebuild. Without change, there won't be any improvement.
This reminds me of when Harper was football coach. As soon as he lost Moses and others to graduation, the talent went down and Harper was obviously just going through the motions and the W-L record went south. Appears Keller is at that same point. Supported Keller for years but last year was bad, then half the team wanted to leave and this season is a bust. Very hard to find many or any good points to discuss. Whether it is that Keller and staff have "lost" the control or loyalty of the players or if our talent level is below par, the results are poor and unacceptable if our goal is to win in the SLC and make some NCAA Dances. Not going to happen without some wholesale changes.
This is actually a fantastic comparison
Honestly, I saw Loyalty gone in the last portal. Yes, the transfer portal sucks, but just seeing Keller lose the locker room just made it 10x worse. I saw that with Day Day's and Frank Staine's Tweets, they were proud of the guys for leaving. I'm surprised Christmas, Stone, Jenkins, and Southwick stayed after that aftermath.Ljacks&Longnecks said:
What we have seen is what we got. Team has played the same all year, decent defense but no scoring. It's not going to change. This coaching staff and team will need a complete rebuild. Without change, there won't be any improvement.
This reminds me of when Harper was football coach. As soon as he lost Moses and others to graduation, the talent went down and Harper was obviously just going through the motions and the W-L record went south. Appears Keller is at that same point. Supported Keller for years but last year was bad, then half the team wanted to leave and this season is a bust. Very hard to find many or any good points to discuss. Whether it is that Keller and staff have "lost" the control or loyalty of the players or if our talent level is below par, the results are poor and unacceptable if our goal is to win in the SLC and make some NCAA Dances. Not going to happen without some wholesale changes.
I feel like we see it now. It's just Keller sitting out trying to figure out what's wrong when it's too late. There is a small game plan of Pressing and staying on top of them, but we are getting outpressed.
As seen in tweets, we are now depressed and no longer PressU.
I think it's clear that Kyle Keller is just not a good Mid Major coach. He wants to build a team that can beat you by just plain being better than you. That works if you can recruit that. But we can't. And never will be able to do that.
With Underwood, we weren't better than VCU talent wise. Or WVU. Or any of the big time opponents we beat or came close to beating under him. Underwood understood that at the Mid Major level, you need to make a gameplan and scheme that can beat anyone. Which is just what he did.
Keller runs a gameplan that would work at say a Texas A&M. It's a system where you have better athletes and you impose your will. The problem is we can't get those better athletes. The only time we did was 2020 when we beat Duke. That season, we had the talent and ability to go far. Not sweet 16. I legitimately believe we had the talent to beat anyone we came in contact with and if given the chance, we could've been the Cinderella dancing after midnight.
That lets me know he's not a bad coach, but he can't coach at this level.
At this point, I think he sees that too. Everything about him tells me he's quit on this team. They've quit on him. I don't think at the time it was a bad hire. But short of a miraculous turnaround and winning the conference tournament, I think the clock has run out.
With Underwood, we weren't better than VCU talent wise. Or WVU. Or any of the big time opponents we beat or came close to beating under him. Underwood understood that at the Mid Major level, you need to make a gameplan and scheme that can beat anyone. Which is just what he did.
Keller runs a gameplan that would work at say a Texas A&M. It's a system where you have better athletes and you impose your will. The problem is we can't get those better athletes. The only time we did was 2020 when we beat Duke. That season, we had the talent and ability to go far. Not sweet 16. I legitimately believe we had the talent to beat anyone we came in contact with and if given the chance, we could've been the Cinderella dancing after midnight.
That lets me know he's not a bad coach, but he can't coach at this level.
At this point, I think he sees that too. Everything about him tells me he's quit on this team. They've quit on him. I don't think at the time it was a bad hire. But short of a miraculous turnaround and winning the conference tournament, I think the clock has run out.
NET down to 264.
Uh oh, a better offense is only going to happen if we find a magic wand. That's a dicey strategy.
1000% Sad part is I think Keller is to hard headed to move on after this year since he knows he will get paid one more year and think he can recruit and run it back next year. We need to do that buy out some how or he needs to walk out himself. But I can't see him walking out in his own regards. Sadly.SFASawmillGuy said:
I think it's clear that Kyle Keller is just not a good Mid Major coach. He wants to build a team that can beat you by just plain being better than you. That works if you can recruit that. But we can't. And never will be able to do that.
With Underwood, we weren't better than VCU talent wise. Or WVU. Or any of the big time opponents we beat or came close to beating under him. Underwood understood that at the Mid Major level, you need to make a gameplan and scheme that can beat anyone. Which is just what he did.
Keller runs a gameplan that would work at say a Texas A&M. It's a system where you have better athletes and you impose your will. The problem is we can't get those better athletes. The only time we did was 2020 when we beat Duke. That season, we had the talent and ability to go far. Not sweet 16. I legitimately believe we had the talent to beat anyone we came in contact with and if given the chance, we could've been the Cinderella dancing after midnight.
That lets me know he's not a bad coach, but he can't coach at this level.
At this point, I think he sees that too. Everything about him tells me he's quit on this team. They've quit on him. I don't think at the time it was a bad hire. But short of a miraculous turnaround and winning the conference tournament, I think the clock has run out.
Watched a bit of the press conference and man it just makes me more frustated as a fan. Keller has a plan but it really just seems one sided. Turnovers are down because we are just chunking the ball up and hope it sinks theres no time for a turnover to occur. The biggest bright side Ive seen so far is our foul numbers are down and we are causing the other team to foul more. WE SHOULD be winning those games but nope. Only a Mount Everest type mountain to climb out of now.
I don't remember the last time I felt numb watching SFA men's bb. They appear to have given up. How an entire Division I team can be cold from the field for WEEKS is beyond me. These guys simply cannot shoot. At all.
SFA, Class of 1979
I think there is a huge double standard here! I like Keller! Bottomline, he is having an off year. I find it comical that some of the same people who are ok with our mediocre football program and the same results year after year want to fire Keller after 1 off year! The only true fact is that Keller has delivered a lot more than Carthel ever has up to this point!!
I do not know the inner workings of this idea but perhaps Keller could release the current team and scholarships at the conclusion of the season and head for the portal like Carthel did....
I do not know the inner workings of this idea but perhaps Keller could release the current team and scholarships at the conclusion of the season and head for the portal like Carthel did....
I don't know man. You say Keller has done more than Carthel thats a stretch lol. Both have made the Playoffs as in the Big Dance and FCS Playoffs once. There been multiple down years with Keller while with Carthel theres been two one being the inherited squad from Conque. The biggest success story with Keller is the Duke game and thats it. Im just wanting change within the basketball culture. It just seems like Keller isn't really adapting to the game infront of him while Carthel is taking full advantage of it. Plus I do enjoy how Carthel is more public with his reasonings and being active on Twitter.AxeEm99 said:
I think there is a huge double standard here! I like Keller! Bottomline, he is having an off year. I find it comical that some of the same people who are ok with our mediocre football program and the same results year after year want to fire Keller after 1 off year! The only true fact is that Keller has delivered a lot more than Carthel ever has up to this point!!
I do not know the inner workings of this idea but perhaps Keller could release the current team and scholarships at the conclusion of the season and head for the portal like Carthel did....
SCH890 said:I don't know man. You say Keller has done more than Carthel thats a stretch lol. Both have made the Playoffs as in the Big Dance and FCS Playoffs once. There been multiple down years with Keller while with Carthel theres been two one being the inherited squad from Conque. The biggest success story with Keller is the Duke game and thats it. Im just wanting change within the basketball culture. It just seems like Keller isn't really adapting to the game infront of him while Carthel is taking full advantage of it. Plus I do enjoy how Carthel is more public with his reasonings and being active on Twitter.AxeEm99 said:
I think there is a huge double standard here! I like Keller! Bottomline, he is having an off year. I find it comical that some of the same people who are ok with our mediocre football program and the same results year after year want to fire Keller after 1 off year! The only true fact is that Keller has delivered a lot more than Carthel ever has up to this point!!
I do not know the inner workings of this idea but perhaps Keller could release the current team and scholarships at the conclusion of the season and head for the portal like Carthel did....
Define "down year". 21 wins? 19 wins? 18 wins? I start around the 19 win mark (which we won't even sniff this year).
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
Down year for Keller Im counting as 2018-2019 (14-16), 2023-2024(18-15), and 2022-2023 (19-13).BigJack85 said:SCH890 said:I don't know man. You say Keller has done more than Carthel thats a stretch lol. Both have made the Playoffs as in the Big Dance and FCS Playoffs once. There been multiple down years with Keller while with Carthel theres been two one being the inherited squad from Conque. The biggest success story with Keller is the Duke game and thats it. Im just wanting change within the basketball culture. It just seems like Keller isn't really adapting to the game infront of him while Carthel is taking full advantage of it. Plus I do enjoy how Carthel is more public with his reasonings and being active on Twitter.AxeEm99 said:
I think there is a huge double standard here! I like Keller! Bottomline, he is having an off year. I find it comical that some of the same people who are ok with our mediocre football program and the same results year after year want to fire Keller after 1 off year! The only true fact is that Keller has delivered a lot more than Carthel ever has up to this point!!
I do not know the inner workings of this idea but perhaps Keller could release the current team and scholarships at the conclusion of the season and head for the portal like Carthel did....
Define "down year". 21 wins? 19 wins? 18 wins? I start around the 19 win mark (which we won't even sniff this year).
Mostly the first two years were we finished 14-16 and 18-15. Some of those wins both of those years come from easy gimmie games D2,D3, or NAIA. All can be chalked up as a losing season.
There's a lot of interesting points being brought up in this thread. So much so, I've been drawn out of my lurking and made an account! This is just a rant that won't do anything to move the needle but I feel like I should say it all. (Sorry for the dissertation).
For starters: I think I have a different criteria for success than the athletic department (and that's ok). If you don't make the tournament, I think it's a failed season. BUT I'm willing to negotiate down to an over/under of 19.5 wins being my "success criteria." I was a student from 2012-2016 so we lost a grand total of 3 conference games and 19 total games when I was in school. I get that I was spoiled during that time but why wouldn't you want something like that back?
I think the athletic department needs a "flagship" men's sport - there's just not enough money to be great at everything here in Nac. I would love for that sport to be basketball, especially since (in my opinion) it has the best facilities and basketball is my favorite sport. If men's basketball is going to be the flagship, we need someone else in charge.
Now with only 3 seasons over 19.5 wins, how can we argue that Keller is this great recruiter? Because he adds guys that look good on paper before getting to us? We've had quite a few HUGE gets recently only for them to be off the team within the season. If they're removed due to behavioral concerns, that's bad recruiting imo. Please stop saying he's a great recruiter. Good recruits develop into good players, good teammates, and win games.
My last complaint is with the crowd (excluding games during breaks). No college student in their right mind wants to watch a losing effort but even in Keller's best seasons, there just hasn't been a crowd. Having gone to several games pre and post covid, there really hasn't been much of an atmosphere change in WRJ so don't blame that event. Not sure what happened with us when I was in school but we had a significantly larger crowd of students back then attending games. We need a coach/system that gets the crowd excited to be there.
I'm picky though. I want to win the conference every year, I want to go to the dance every year, and I want to see some capacity crowds in Nac again. It's competition. You should hate losing more than you love winning. We'll see if I come back for any replies but… Thanks for your time and remember, "the only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one."
For starters: I think I have a different criteria for success than the athletic department (and that's ok). If you don't make the tournament, I think it's a failed season. BUT I'm willing to negotiate down to an over/under of 19.5 wins being my "success criteria." I was a student from 2012-2016 so we lost a grand total of 3 conference games and 19 total games when I was in school. I get that I was spoiled during that time but why wouldn't you want something like that back?
I think the athletic department needs a "flagship" men's sport - there's just not enough money to be great at everything here in Nac. I would love for that sport to be basketball, especially since (in my opinion) it has the best facilities and basketball is my favorite sport. If men's basketball is going to be the flagship, we need someone else in charge.
Now with only 3 seasons over 19.5 wins, how can we argue that Keller is this great recruiter? Because he adds guys that look good on paper before getting to us? We've had quite a few HUGE gets recently only for them to be off the team within the season. If they're removed due to behavioral concerns, that's bad recruiting imo. Please stop saying he's a great recruiter. Good recruits develop into good players, good teammates, and win games.
My last complaint is with the crowd (excluding games during breaks). No college student in their right mind wants to watch a losing effort but even in Keller's best seasons, there just hasn't been a crowd. Having gone to several games pre and post covid, there really hasn't been much of an atmosphere change in WRJ so don't blame that event. Not sure what happened with us when I was in school but we had a significantly larger crowd of students back then attending games. We need a coach/system that gets the crowd excited to be there.
I'm picky though. I want to win the conference every year, I want to go to the dance every year, and I want to see some capacity crowds in Nac again. It's competition. You should hate losing more than you love winning. We'll see if I come back for any replies but… Thanks for your time and remember, "the only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one."
Welcome to the sawmill! I feel ya. I was your era post from 2016 to 2020. So basically, in the High of Underwood years, Keller reaped the recruits from Underwood and started to recruit a bit under his belt (i.e., Kevon). Basketball should be the staple sport in Nac until Football can get better facilities. I do agree the issue with Keller is keeping people to stay. Chris Johnson should be here and balling out, but nope, something happened there. We saw it a bit in other regards with other high-end recruits coming here.2much2na said:
There's a lot of interesting points being brought up in this thread. So much so, I've been drawn out of my lurking and made an account! This is just a rant that won't do anything to move the needle but I feel like I should say it all. (Sorry for the dissertation).
For starters: I think I have a different criteria for success than the athletic department (and that's ok). If you don't make the tournament, I think it's a failed season. BUT I'm willing to negotiate down to an over/under of 19.5 wins being my "success criteria." I was a student from 2012-2016 so we lost a grand total of 3 conference games and 19 total games when I was in school. I get that I was spoiled during that time but why wouldn't you want something like that back?
I think the athletic department needs a "flagship" men's sport - there's just not enough money to be great at everything here in Nac. I would love for that sport to be basketball, especially since (in my opinion) it has the best facilities and basketball is my favorite sport. If men's basketball is going to be the flagship, we need someone else in charge.
Now with only 3 seasons over 19.5 wins, how can we argue that Keller is this great recruiter? Because he adds guys that look good on paper before getting to us? We've had quite a few HUGE gets recently only for them to be off the team within the season. If they're removed due to behavioral concerns, that's bad recruiting imo. Please stop saying he's a great recruiter. Good recruits develop into good players, good teammates, and win games.
My last complaint is with the crowd (excluding games during breaks). No college student in their right mind wants to watch a losing effort but even in Keller's best seasons, there just hasn't been a crowd. Having gone to several games pre and post covid, there really hasn't been much of an atmosphere change in WRJ so don't blame that event. Not sure what happened with us when I was in school but we had a significantly larger crowd of students back then attending games. We need a coach/system that gets the crowd excited to be there.
I'm picky though. I want to win the conference every year, I want to go to the dance every year, and I want to see some capacity crowds in Nac again. It's competition. You should hate losing more than you love winning. We'll see if I come back for any replies but… Thanks for your time and remember, "the only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one."
We may not have the talent we've had previously, but we certainly should beat HCU.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
2much2na said:
There's a lot of interesting points being brought up in this thread. So much so, I've been drawn out of my lurking and made an account! This is just a rant that won't do anything to move the needle but I feel like I should say it all. (Sorry for the dissertation).
For starters: I think I have a different criteria for success than the athletic department (and that's ok). If you don't make the tournament, I think it's a failed season. BUT I'm willing to negotiate down to an over/under of 19.5 wins being my "success criteria." I was a student from 2012-2016 so we lost a grand total of 3 conference games and 19 total games when I was in school. I get that I was spoiled during that time but why wouldn't you want something like that back?
I think the athletic department needs a "flagship" men's sport - there's just not enough money to be great at everything here in Nac. I would love for that sport to be basketball, especially since (in my opinion) it has the best facilities and basketball is my favorite sport. If men's basketball is going to be the flagship, we need someone else in charge.
Now with only 3 seasons over 19.5 wins, how can we argue that Keller is this great recruiter? Because he adds guys that look good on paper before getting to us? We've had quite a few HUGE gets recently only for them to be off the team within the season. If they're removed due to behavioral concerns, that's bad recruiting imo. Please stop saying he's a great recruiter. Good recruits develop into good players, good teammates, and win games.
My last complaint is with the crowd (excluding games during breaks). No college student in their right mind wants to watch a losing effort but even in Keller's best seasons, there just hasn't been a crowd. Having gone to several games pre and post covid, there really hasn't been much of an atmosphere change in WRJ so don't blame that event. Not sure what happened with us when I was in school but we had a significantly larger crowd of students back then attending games. We need a coach/system that gets the crowd excited to be there.
I'm picky though. I want to win the conference every year, I want to go to the dance every year, and I want to see some capacity crowds in Nac again. It's competition. You should hate losing more than you love winning. We'll see if I come back for any replies but… Thanks for your time and remember, "the only thing worse than beating a dead horse is betting on one."
To your point about the crowd, I think promotion for the games has gone way downhill since 2016. I was a student at SFA from 2012-2016 as well(I'm sure we saw each other plenty of times). I remember around campus there was always tons of stuff advertising big games coming up. Hell, Cram The Coliseum was promoted in the summer prior to the start of the season so everyone knew that's the game we are blowing the roof of the coliseum. I remember the game against Sam Houston when there were multiple rows of standing room only on the top deck, and the fire marshall actually had to put limits on how many fans could attend the next game.
Even football under Conque had games that we at the least listed as having over 13k in attendance. Probably cooked numbers but the crowds were obviously bigger the. They are now.
Winning cures a lot of the crowd issues, but a lot of it is also getting the word out that we need fans in the stands. And SFA has done a trash job of it since at least fall of 2016.
In regards to Keller, see my above post. I won't say he's a bad recruiter, but he out kicks his coverage. He doesn't seem to get he's at SFA, not A&M anymore. He wants to recruit traditional players. SFA can't win with those guys because we can't get powerhouse guys who play like that. We need to recruit the best players we can get, and build an attack that fits their skills.
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