I just don't think Keller is it! I don't think he is the guy that can get us in the position to be successful in the postseason, let alone the tourney. I think Keller is a decent coach, but the track record with this team is there. How many years can it be the fault of injuries? They happen, but then the questions about depth come up. Keller shouldn't be up and fired, but he does need to be on the hot seat. A very warm hot seat!
SFA / Utah Tech - WACVegas Round 1
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Last: 1 yr ago by SFA Jack Fanatic
SFA88 said:
I refuse to say we have 19 wins. Three of those wins were against LeTourneau, Paul Quinn, and North American. Those are just games to pad the schedule. Everyone does it but I'm not counting those games.
They definitely count. Just like they would if we lost them. Every team plays lower noncon teams at the beginning of the year.
Lumberjack Battalion
Lumberjacks make great US Army Special Ops Officers - AxeEm!
Lumberjacks make great US Army Special Ops Officers - AxeEm!
I feel Coach K is unhappy and he is not the hot commodity he once was.. I am a Coach Keller fan and I realize there is a buyout of his contract if SFA wants to replace him.. Its gonna be interesting thats for sure...Coach has alot of money already so I wouldn't be surprised to see him resign or work a deal so that SFA can stomach the buyout a little easier.. again this is pure speculation on my part...
Like I said, everyone does it but I'm not giving them credit for beating those teams. If they loose those games, the coach is likely fired before the season is over. The Jack's have 16 wins against D1 opponents.RedRiverLa said:SFA88 said:
I refuse to say we have 19 wins. Three of those wins were against LeTourneau, Paul Quinn, and North American. Those are just games to pad the schedule. Everyone does it but I'm not counting those games.
They definitely count. Just like they would if we lost them. Every team plays lower noncon teams at the beginning of the year.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for Keller to be fired. It's possible he isn't the guy to get them over the hump but you could also do much worse. I don't like asking for another person's job unless there are extreme circumstances (NMSU).
Jacks4460 said:
I feel Coach K is unhappy and he is not the hot commodity he once was.. I am a Coach Keller fan and I realize there is a buyout of his contract if SFA wants to replace him.. Its gonna be interesting thats for sure...Coach has alot of money already so I wouldn't be surprised to see him resign or work a deal so that SFA can stomach the buyout a little easier.. again this is pure speculation on my part...
Off base. I don't see an unhappy Keller. I see a unsatisfied Keller. He wants more, we want more. If Ivey decides to make a change (I seriously doubt it) it would be like throwing away a 7 year build and not waiting for the finish. How many coaches have we had that can claim 3, 20 win seasons, along with a 18 win and a 19 win season. The 16 win season would easily have been another 20 win season had we played an entire schedule. Talk of letting Keller go, is absurd imo.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
Why must it take 7+ years?BigJack85 said:Jacks4460 said:
I feel Coach K is unhappy and he is not the hot commodity he once was.. I am a Coach Keller fan and I realize there is a buyout of his contract if SFA wants to replace him.. Its gonna be interesting thats for sure...Coach has alot of money already so I wouldn't be surprised to see him resign or work a deal so that SFA can stomach the buyout a little easier.. again this is pure speculation on my part...
Off base. I don't see an unhappy Keller. I see a unsatisfied Keller. He wants more, we want more. If Ivey decides to make a change (I seriously doubt it) it would be like throwing away a 7 year build and not waiting for the finish. How many coaches have we had that can claim 3, 20 win seasons, along with a 18 win and a 19 win season. The 16 win season would easily have been another 20 win season had we played an entire schedule. Talk of letting Keller go, is absurd imo.
We watched Brad Underwood stay three years, win three regular season titles, three regular season titles, three NCAA appearances and two NCAA wins (DAMN YOU NOTRE DAME!)
Now, is that the norm? Probably not.
But why must this current "build" take 7+ years? He went to the tournament in year two...and has not built anything of relevance since then (covid year, I know).
We're not even able to get out of the first round of a conference tournament.
It's probably unfair to Keller to compare to BU (and again, I am very bad at doing that) but I ask a simple question...When?
When are we going to see the desired results?
How long is reasonable to wait? Another year? Another three years? Another 7 years?
Does changing coaches make sense? Probably not right now.
Keller comes back next year, for sure, but he REALLY needs to produce something of value, or the tenor of this discussion will start to swing.
MasterAxe said:Why must it take 7+ years?BigJack85 said:Jacks4460 said:
I feel Coach K is unhappy and he is not the hot commodity he once was.. I am a Coach Keller fan and I realize there is a buyout of his contract if SFA wants to replace him.. Its gonna be interesting thats for sure...Coach has alot of money already so I wouldn't be surprised to see him resign or work a deal so that SFA can stomach the buyout a little easier.. again this is pure speculation on my part...
Off base. I don't see an unhappy Keller. I see a unsatisfied Keller. He wants more, we want more. If Ivey decides to make a change (I seriously doubt it) it would be like throwing away a 7 year build and not waiting for the finish. How many coaches have we had that can claim 3, 20 win seasons, along with a 18 win and a 19 win season. The 16 win season would easily have been another 20 win season had we played an entire schedule. Talk of letting Keller go, is absurd imo.
We watched Brad Underwood stay three years, win three regular season titles, three regular season titles, three NCAA appearances and two NCAA wins (DAMN YOU NOTRE DAME!)
Now, is that the norm? Probably not.
But why must this current "build" take 7+ years? He went to the tournament in year two...and has not built anything of relevance since then (covid year, I know).
We're not even able to get out of the first round of a conference tournament.
It's probably unfair to Keller to compare to BU (and again, I am very bad at doing that) but I ask a simple question...When?
When are we going to see the desired results?
How long is reasonable to wait? Another year? Another three years? Another 7 years?
Does changing coaches make sense? Probably not right now.
Keller comes back next year, for sure, but he REALLY needs to produce something of value, or the tenor of this discussion will start to swing.
I think you are missing my point. You are looking for a NCAA tournament win, soon. Or tomorrow. Or next season. So am I
Let's just say we let Keller go (not going to happen) and hire some hotshot D2 coach. The potential results are unknown. We did that (D2 coach from ACU in late 80's/90's) We went 2-25, 4-23. My point is , we'd be taking an enormous risk for the potential. Destroy a program in one hire. NMSU is dealing with that right now. I don't want to take that risk, because I'm unhappy with a 19 win season. (I am unhappy with a 19 win season).
None of us want 19-13 with 2 losses to Sam.
I'll describe what imo would put Keller on the hot seat, 23-24 - klunker (below 17 wins/below .500) 24-25 - no improvement or the team is worse. That sequence would have me considering Keller's future. Today, I have no concerns.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
Hate to be a broken record but Underwood never had the injury issue and had the benefit of taking over an established and very well put together roster.
One thing I've always said about Underwood is we don't know how well he would've done in the long run with SFA because we literally never saw his recruits in action. He played mostly with Kasper's players and TJ was really the only guy he brought in that made an impact.
Keller didn't have the benefit of taking over a complete roster of guys ready to go. He had a few but it wasn't as loaded. He has proven he can bring in incredible talent and when healthy, be very successful. The issue has just been health and the fact we haven't had some of these guys multiple years now. But it's not as much of Keller as you're implying.
One thing I've always said about Underwood is we don't know how well he would've done in the long run with SFA because we literally never saw his recruits in action. He played mostly with Kasper's players and TJ was really the only guy he brought in that made an impact.
Keller didn't have the benefit of taking over a complete roster of guys ready to go. He had a few but it wasn't as loaded. He has proven he can bring in incredible talent and when healthy, be very successful. The issue has just been health and the fact we haven't had some of these guys multiple years now. But it's not as much of Keller as you're implying.
I will accept some of this as true...but, regarding injuries...have we ever really asked why?SFASawmillGuy said:
Hate to be a broken record but Underwood never had the injury issue and had the benefit of taking over an established and very well put together roster.
One thing I've always said about Underwood is we don't know how well he would've done in the long run with SFA because we literally never saw his recruits in action. He played mostly with Kasper's players and TJ was really the only guy he brought in that made an impact.
Keller didn't have the benefit of taking over a complete roster of guys ready to go. He had a few but it wasn't as loaded. He has proven he can bring in incredible talent and when healthy, be very successful. The issue has just been health and the fact we haven't had some of these guys multiple years now. But it's not as much of Keller as you're implying.
As in, what did BU do to not have the same injury issues at Keller?
The "Yeah, but injuries" seems to be a running theme with Keller...so, why?
Perhaps is it as much about Keller as I'm implying. Specfically, why are his teams so injured, seemingly always?
We started the season this year with guys hurt, so what is happening away from games that is causing this?
Is he running "Remember the Titans' type practices? Does our S&C just stink?
He's the head coach...everything lands at his feet.
A lot of the outcomes you described hinge on what happens here in the next few months.BigJack85 said:MasterAxe said:Why must it take 7+ years?BigJack85 said:Jacks4460 said:
I feel Coach K is unhappy and he is not the hot commodity he once was.. I am a Coach Keller fan and I realize there is a buyout of his contract if SFA wants to replace him.. Its gonna be interesting thats for sure...Coach has alot of money already so I wouldn't be surprised to see him resign or work a deal so that SFA can stomach the buyout a little easier.. again this is pure speculation on my part...
Off base. I don't see an unhappy Keller. I see a unsatisfied Keller. He wants more, we want more. If Ivey decides to make a change (I seriously doubt it) it would be like throwing away a 7 year build and not waiting for the finish. How many coaches have we had that can claim 3, 20 win seasons, along with a 18 win and a 19 win season. The 16 win season would easily have been another 20 win season had we played an entire schedule. Talk of letting Keller go, is absurd imo.
We watched Brad Underwood stay three years, win three regular season titles, three regular season titles, three NCAA appearances and two NCAA wins (DAMN YOU NOTRE DAME!)
Now, is that the norm? Probably not.
But why must this current "build" take 7+ years? He went to the tournament in year two...and has not built anything of relevance since then (covid year, I know).
We're not even able to get out of the first round of a conference tournament.
It's probably unfair to Keller to compare to BU (and again, I am very bad at doing that) but I ask a simple question...When?
When are we going to see the desired results?
How long is reasonable to wait? Another year? Another three years? Another 7 years?
Does changing coaches make sense? Probably not right now.
Keller comes back next year, for sure, but he REALLY needs to produce something of value, or the tenor of this discussion will start to swing.
I think you are missing my point. You are looking for a NCAA tournament win, soon. Or tomorrow. Or next season. So am I
Let's just say we let Keller go (not going to happen) and hire some hotshot D2 coach. The potential results are unknown. We did that (D2 coach from ACU in late 80's/90's) We went 2-25, 4-23. My point is , we'd be taking an enormous risk for the potential. Destroy a program in one hire. NMSU is dealing with that right now. I don't want to take that risk, because I'm unhappy with a 19 win season. (I am unhappy with a 19 win season).
None of us want 19-13 with 2 losses to Sam.
I'll describe what imo would put Keller on the hot seat, 23-24 - klunker (below 17 wins/below .500) 24-25 - no improvement or the team is worse. That sequence would have me considering Keller's future. Today, I have no concerns.
It is very clear what we need to do in recruiting.
So, if we don't make some headway this year in recruting, those outcomes you listed become more and more possible,
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
Pilotgirl said:
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
Definitely a huge game changer. Can be good and bad. IE, you can rebuild in one off-season.
But you can also lose a good player like Solomon who averaged almost 10 points a game this year with quiet a few 12-16 point games.
Keller is great at finding hidden gems, let's just make sure they stay on campus.
Relative to Solomon, and others ... "I've never lost a player I didn't want to lose, except Holyfield."TallTexan said:Pilotgirl said:
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
Definitely a huge game changer. Can be good and bad. IE, you can rebuild in one off-season.
But you can also lose a good player like Solomon who averaged almost 10 points a game this year with quiet a few 12-16 point games.
Keller is great at finding hidden gems, let's just make sure they stay on campus.
Football is the only program that we have, that I can think of, that has had a negative impact due to the transfer portal.
Totally agree.Pilotgirl said:
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
There has to be some big men out there that need a new place.
SFAJack_76 said:Relative to Solomon, and others ... "I've never lost a player I didn't want to lose, except Holyfield."TallTexan said:Pilotgirl said:
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
Definitely a huge game changer. Can be good and bad. IE, you can rebuild in one off-season.
But you can also lose a good player like Solomon who averaged almost 10 points a game this year with quiet a few 12-16 point games.
Keller is great at finding hidden gems, let's just make sure they stay on campus.
Football is the only program that we have, that I can think of, that has had a negative impact due to the transfer portal.
My biggest gripe there and with Keller in general, is losing them mid-season.
I'm ok with the strict rules in general, I think it keeps us from having NMSU/Baylor situations.
My main gripe is that it seems we either need to do a better job vetting or explaining them on the front end. We seem to lose a few dudes every year, some mid season, and then our depth is hurt and everyone's minutes are up. I can also think of a handful of guys who never even made it to game time.
That's an area I'd like to see examined and remedied as much as possible.
The kid from Atlanta TX (Damion Collins) that went to Kentucky needs to come on back to Texas and play at SFA. He gets less than 5-8 minutes a game at KentuckyMasterAxe said:Totally agree.Pilotgirl said:
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
There has to be some big men out there that need a new place.
Ding Ding Ding! Exactly. Needs to come to SFA.
Excellent point.TallTexan said:SFAJack_76 said:Relative to Solomon, and others ... "I've never lost a player I didn't want to lose, except Holyfield."TallTexan said:Pilotgirl said:
I'll let yall keep debating Keller staying or going; however, another variable to consider is the Transfer Portal. That has totally changed since BU was here. Again, not getting in the middle of this debated Lol but definitely impacts programs way more now than in the past.
Definitely a huge game changer. Can be good and bad. IE, you can rebuild in one off-season.
But you can also lose a good player like Solomon who averaged almost 10 points a game this year with quiet a few 12-16 point games.
Keller is great at finding hidden gems, let's just make sure they stay on campus.
Football is the only program that we have, that I can think of, that has had a negative impact due to the transfer portal.
My biggest gripe there and with Keller in general, is losing them mid-season.
I'm ok with the strict rules in general, I think it keeps us from having NMSU/Baylor situations.
My main gripe is that it seems we either need to do a better job vetting or explaining them on the front end. We seem to lose a few dudes every year, some mid season, and then our depth is hurt and everyone's minutes are up. I can also think of a handful of guys who never even made it to game time.
That's an area I'd like to see examined and remedied as much as possible.
It's pointless to be a great recruiter if we are losing a good chunk of the players before they ever play or even after just one year.
Oh the Bearkats lost. HUGE surprise. Huge.
Like I have said before.. Keller can not handle the inner city "baller" type player that has swagger and lacks the proper manners at times.. Those are the kids he gets on campus and then when they get to Nacogdoches he becomes a tough love type of coach and those types of players need alot of special nurturing that the big schools with 20 on staff can help with and Coach Keller doesnt have that help at his disposal.. These kids need guidance and alot of patience because they never got it at home growing up and just dont know how to handle certain pressures/anxiety we all deal with in life.. I still say he is unhappy because he was suppose to be a hot commodity right now and he is not.. I am one of his biggest fans but he needs to be on a hotseat this year... Ryan has a tough job to deal with on this one...
I have enjoyed reading all the posts on the Sawmill forum during the basketball season and have watched most of the games on ESPN+. I have agreed with most of your comments until now.
During the football season, I made some comments about Carthel regarding his future that a few did not agree with. Now, the same people who did not agree with me and essentially called me out regarding my opinions on Carthel are suggesting that Keller possibly be replaced. I 100% disagree with your assessment as you did with mine!! I think Keller was the right choice to replace Brad Underwood in 2016 and is still the right choice for SFA basketball in 2023! Replacing Keller would be a setback and a total disaster for the program and SFA Athletics as a whole! I cannot imagine navigating COVID, recurring injuries, the transfer portal, and a transition to the WAC all at the same time as a coach. I think Keller has done a great job with cards that have been dealt! Give him a break and AXE 'EM!
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
During the football season, I made some comments about Carthel regarding his future that a few did not agree with. Now, the same people who did not agree with me and essentially called me out regarding my opinions on Carthel are suggesting that Keller possibly be replaced. I 100% disagree with your assessment as you did with mine!! I think Keller was the right choice to replace Brad Underwood in 2016 and is still the right choice for SFA basketball in 2023! Replacing Keller would be a setback and a total disaster for the program and SFA Athletics as a whole! I cannot imagine navigating COVID, recurring injuries, the transfer portal, and a transition to the WAC all at the same time as a coach. I think Keller has done a great job with cards that have been dealt! Give him a break and AXE 'EM!
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
AxeEm99 said:
I have enjoyed reading all the posts on the Sawmill forum during the basketball season and have watched most of the games on ESPN+. I have agreed with most of your comments until now.
During the football season, I made some comments about Carthel regarding his future that a few did not agree with. Now, the same people who did not agree with me and essentially called me out regarding my opinions on Carthel are suggesting that Keller possibly be replaced. I 100% disagree with your assessment as you did with mine!! I think Keller was the right choice to replace Brad Underwood in 2016 and is still the right choice for SFA basketball in 2023! Replacing Keller would be a setback and a total disaster for the program and SFA Athletics as a whole! I cannot imagine navigating COVID, recurring injuries, the transfer portal, and a transition to the WAC all at the same time as a coach. I think Keller has done a great job with cards that have been dealt! Give him a break and AXE 'EM!
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
100% agree.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
Totally agree. Would hate to see coach leave.
And, Carthel took over a complete train wreck of a program, while Keller inherited a program that was 2 seconds from the sweet sixteen.AxeEm99 said:
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
It actually takes a fair amount of number massaging to say they have close to the same winning percentage. I guess if you want to include Carthel's D2 numbers then they get closer.AxeEm99 said:
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
Statistically speaking Keller's teams have won about two of every three D1 opponent games and Carthel's teams haven't quite gotten to a winning percentage. If you include non-D1 opponents, both coaches fair better with Carthel now being 1 game over .500.
Describe the stats how you want and where they started from, but Keller has taken a winning program and continued winning. Carthel has taken a rough program and has gotten them to a break even point. Again I think comparing football and basketball is fairly ridiculous but they do not have parallel stats.
You can find different stats in everything.. I think 76 is probably talking about W-L.. you can have some statistical variable on anything but straight up wins and loses is what matters..
nacluth said:It actually takes a fair amount of number massaging to say they have close to the same winning percentage. I guess if you want to include Carthel's D2 numbers then they get closer.AxeEm99 said:
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
Statistically speaking Keller's teams have won about two of every three D1 opponent games and Carthel's teams haven't quite gotten to a winning percentage. If you include non-D1 opponents, both coaches fair better with Carthel now being 1 game over .500.
Describe the stats how you want and where they started from, but Keller has taken a winning program and continued winning. Carthel has taken a rough program and has gotten them to a break even point. Again I think comparing football and basketball is fairly ridiculous but they do not have parallel stats.
I'm a firm supporter of Keller. It isn't just stats. Just to be accurate Keller's win percentage is 68%. Ya, that's damn good. The people that want to fire him have got to be thinking we can find a coach that can get to a 72% or higher winning percentage. Throwing out a guy who is already very close to what we want the end product to look like seems like a really big risk for little potential gain. We've made these type of changes before (mostly in football) because someone thinks that SFA is preordained to win ~73% of the time.
I don't think we should even be talking about a Keller exit, unless next year is a 16-14 train wreck.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
nacluth said:It actually takes a fair amount of number massaging to say they have close to the same winning percentage. I guess if you want to include Carthel's D2 numbers then they get closer.AxeEm99 said:
(As a side note both Carthel and Keller have almost the same winning percentage at SFA... .630+/-)
Statistically speaking Keller's teams have won about two of every three D1 opponent games and Carthel's teams haven't quite gotten to a winning percentage. If you include non-D1 opponents, both coaches fair better with Carthel now being 1 game over .500.
Describe the stats how you want and where they started from, but Keller has taken a winning program and continued winning. Carthel has taken a rough program and has gotten them to a break even point. Again I think comparing football and basketball is fairly ridiculous but they do not have parallel stats.
Carthel took a completely broken program and turned them into a program it makes sense to see as a winner each year. If we won 10+ games next year and look like a real contender, it honestly wouldn't shock me. Keller has brought in some phenomenal recruits and has kept SFA at a point you can't count them out, even against the number 1 or top 10 team in the nation(multiple times). Keller will have us back. SFA is in great hands in most sports and I think talking about any coaching changes at almost all our sports isn't the way to go with it.
I for one cannot wait to see the Jacks take the field this fall and take the court again later in the year. You can't count these guys or gals our in any sport, and a huge part of that is Ryan Ivey has done a great job finding outstanding program builders.
On the note of Keller, we should absolutely not lose faith in him. Maybe the injuries are something he can control with more lax practices or maybe we have just had bad luck, but we've seen with a healthy team what he can do. He's not a dumb man and I'm sure will spend countless hours in the film room trying to figure out a way that this kind of season doesn't happen again.
Keller wants to win as bad or more than we do. I like all the guys Keller brought in this year. Front court recruiting and injuries was the thing.
I find it puzzling that some people want Keller gone because he isn't producing what they want. I seem to hear VERY little about baseball making a change, and that program has been totally ineffective for years.
djsfw57 said:
I find it puzzling that some people want Keller gone because he isn't producing what they want. I seem to hear VERY little about baseball making a change, and that program has been totally ineffective for years.
Ya. But, big but … SFA has the worst baseball facilities in D1 (state of Texas) and probably worse than most D2 schools in Texas.
Axe 'Em Jacks - Class of 85'
I wish Keller to stay, I wish we'd win back to back conference titles, I wish we'd go to the NCAA, possibly win second round. So, i'm still wishing. I wish more people to show up for boys and girls games, I wish our expensive very nice facility would draw top talent, I wish they would let the band play more, I wish our dance team would win one more championship, I wish they'd bring back unsalted popcorn, I wish we would cram the coliseum at least once, and I wish once somebody would choose the wrong french fries box. There, if two of these comes true next year, I will consider it a good year.
Lumberjack Battalion
Lumberjacks make great US Army Special Ops Officers - AxeEm!
Lumberjacks make great US Army Special Ops Officers - AxeEm!
RedRiverLa said:
I wish Keller to stay, I wish we'd win back to back conference titles, I wish we'd go to the NCAA, possibly win second round. So, i'm still wishing. I wish more people to show up for boys and girls games, I wish our expensive very nice facility would draw top talent, I wish they would let the band play more, I wish our dance team would win one more championship, I wish they'd bring back unsalted popcorn, I wish we would cram the coliseum at least once, and I wish once somebody would choose the wrong french fries box. There, if two of these comes true next year, I will consider it a good year.
Your genie in the bottle is going to die from being overworked. Shame on you. Genie abuse!
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