Penalties for APR

22,095 Views | 115 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by SFAJack_76
MasterAxe
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In reply to ACUCattitude • 1:14p, 5/20/20
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.

Make sure your own house is in order before you comment on others.

Oh, an quit being cheap-asses and pay your coach more.

https://ktxs.com/sports/college-sports/gofundme-account-started-to-buy-acu-coach-new-suit
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TallTexan
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In reply to ACUCattitude • 1:18p, 5/20/20
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.



They had classes that didn't count, that they didn't know about. What you have is sour grapes.
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PurpleOut
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In reply to ACUCattitude • 1:25p, 5/20/20
Staff
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.

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Pilotgirl
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In reply to ACUCattitude • 1:30p, 5/20/20
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.



AC who??
I am 100% tired of your condescending posts. Get on outta here.
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LUMBERJACK2005
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2:12p, 5/20/20
Could someone give me our new records in basketball for all of the affected years (or point me to where they are listed if someone already has)?

Who is the unnamed former academics director?

It feels like this could very well be going on at other universities. The NCAA wants to chastise SFA for not monitoring and having proper procedures in place, yet, clearly they wouldn't have ever known if SFA hadn't found the error and self-reported. Who knows how many other small schools have made mistakes that have been overlooked without the NCAA having any idea. It's obvious we had a person in place whom the job got too big for and a system in place that was antiquated at best. I agree with all of the penalties assessed, but I think these make the postseason ban unnecessary. Punishing a team retroactively and in the future, seams harsh for being a "model" for a school whom self-reports.

On a positive note. I think we reached a point, with our national notoriety from basketball, in the athletics department where we needed an overhaul of personnel and systems to match the stature of an athletics program we want to grow to, if we were going to take the next step. In that regards, its good to see that our new administration seems to be prepared for that task.

This sucks, undoubtedly, but another 25 plus win season and NCAA tournament appearance (maybe a win or two ), will make it easy to forget. Further, it really just goes to show you how backwards the NCAA is in it's thinking. You have programs like LSU, Arizona, Kansas, and Louisville on tape talking about paying players and they get free passes, meanwhile they punish the little guys because some ignoramus decided he wanted to be a jack of all trades and a master of none.
Axe 'Em!
c/o 2005
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wahlwesle
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In reply to LUMBERJACK2005 • 2:39p, 5/20/20
LUMBERJACK2005 said:
I agree with all of the penalties assessed, but I think these make the postseason ban unnecessary.
I felt this way after reading the report. They imposed a bunch of penalties for letting ineligible players play (which is fine), and then posed another penalty for not sufficiently meeting a metric that uses eligibility in it's calculation. I know the NCAA isn't the court of law, but it feels like double jeopardy to me.
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No-look
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In reply to PurpleOut • 2:57p, 5/20/20
PurpleOut said:
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.

. Dang ACUC. must have been something you said. Lol
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ibtsoom
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3:33p, 5/20/20
Do all the championship rings have to be taken back?
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BigJack85
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3:41p, 5/20/20
I doubt that......
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to MasterAxe • 3:44p, 5/20/20
MasterAxe said:
nacluth said:
It means Underwood only had one tournament team. At least we still beat VCU, but we can't claim the WVU win. We're no longer the winningest team in Texas or have one of the best home court records. Walkup's career can't be touted. All of our 100 win players are vacated from their records: Jacob, Thomas, Ty, Trey, Dallas.

Keller has not coached a team to the NCAA's. We have no SLC tournament titles since the 2013-2014 season, but it looks like this year's SLC title will stay. Duke counts.

It's seriously affecting how we can bill ourselves.
While technically correct, this is the same vein as "Reggie Bush did not win Heisman in 2005."

We won those games and everyone knows it.
My first thought was exactly the Reggie Bush Heisman - yep it's not there anymore, but we all know he earned it on the field. They can take the banners down, and we'll be ridicule fodder for years by the other teams and their fans - but my emotion and pride watching us beat WVU will never change - and, in the end, it's always been us against them, and our 'us' is all I care about. Besides, I kind of feel that our best major accomplishments are still ahead of us. So this gives other teams in BB one year they don't have to worry about SFA in the tourney, kind of like when Jordan went to play baseball, then he came back to win 3 straight and kicked everyone's a$$
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SFAXE93
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3:50p, 5/20/20
So they take away the wins, but we get to keep the losses?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Underwood
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to PurpleOut • 3:51p, 5/20/20
PurpleOut said:
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.

Exactly - SMH! And that's the great thing about the internet, anyone unfamiliar with the topic can offer an opinion. Infectious disease experts have now become SFA athletic experts. I wonder how much if any, these 'ineligible' players played? It's, of course, wrong, punishment is required ( too harsh in my opinion) - but did they really impact any game as is his premise? A minor point that makes no difference - but just wondering away.
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to LUMBERJACK2005 • 3:54p, 5/20/20
LUMBERJACK2005 said:
Further, it really just goes to show you how backwards the NCAA is in it's thinking. You have programs like LSU, Arizona, Kansas, and Louisville on tape talking about paying players and they get free passes, meanwhile they punish the little guys
I think this sum up my frustration 100% - well stated! How the F is Will Wade still coaching - FBI tapes on paying players.
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TallTexan
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In reply to SFAXE93 • 3:56p, 5/20/20
SFAXE93 said:
So they take away the wins, but we get to keep the losses?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Underwood


Nah, the ineligible players played in those games too and we cant be sure that the loss wasn't their fault.
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to ACUCattitude • 3:59p, 5/20/20
ACUCattitude said:
As a fan of another school, I do not think that the NCAA is blowing it out of proportion. Whether intentional or not, SFA had an extreme competitive advantage over the rest of the SLC. For 6 years and 117 wins SFAMBB played ineligible players. They won three championships that might have gone to other conference schools.

This was a negotiated settlement. It might have been so much worse if Ivey had not taken immediate action when he found out.

Having said that, I am 100% pulling for the Lumberjacks. You now have a terrific AD and solid coaches in football and most other sports. Might be time to clean house in men's basketball, however.

Best wishes to you all.

You lost me at "As a fan of another school..."
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to TallTexan • 4:00p, 5/20/20
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to TallTexan • 4:00p, 5/20/20
TallTexan said:
SFAXE93 said:
So they take away the wins, but we get to keep the losses?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Underwood


Nah, the ineligible players played in those games too and we cant be sure that the loss wasn't their fault.
ok, that was actually an LOL on this end.
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SFA Jack Fanatic
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4:14p, 5/20/20
NCAA: "How dare you, embarrassing us by beating Duke at Cameron! We'll show you who's running this show!"
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SFAJack_76
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In reply to RedRiverLa • 5:11p, 5/20/20
RedRiverLa said:




Exactly - SMH! And that's the great thing about the internet, anyone unfamiliar with the topic can offer an opinion. Infectious disease experts have now become SFA athletic experts. I wonder how much if any, these 'ineligible' players played? It's, of course, wrong, punishment is required ( too harsh in my opinion) - but did they really impact any game as is his premise? A minor point that makes no difference - but just wondering away.
Ineligible players played. If they had not, there would not be a penalty for them being ineligible.
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to SFAJack_76 • 8:49p, 5/20/20
SFAJack_76 said:
RedRiverLa said:




Exactly - SMH! And that's the great thing about the internet, anyone unfamiliar with the topic can offer an opinion. Infectious disease experts have now become SFA athletic experts. I wonder how much if any, these 'ineligible' players played? It's, of course, wrong, punishment is required ( too harsh in my opinion) - but did they really impact any game as is his premise? A minor point that makes no difference - but just wondering away.
Ineligible players played. If they had not, there would not be a penalty for them being ineligible.
ok, I'm not referencing their ineligibility related to the punishment at all - only to how much of an impact did the ineligible have in the outcome of gameplay during the season. You can be ineligible, be on the team, and see limited court time and still be in violation, or not play valuable minutes, etc.,. Not saying it in relation to the whether or not it should matter in the punishment, only to ACUC's post premise in this thread that the ineligible players made a substantial difference in game outcomes and were the reason we won conference championships. It's not important, and doesn't really matter, but we just don't know.

So this means that the LSU, LA Tech, and Baylor wins are among the casualties, correct?
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TallTexan
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9:29p, 5/20/20
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Pilotgirl
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In reply to RedRiverLa • 10:08p, 5/20/20
Yes
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MasterAxe
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8:42a, 5/21/20
This might be the part that pisses me off the most, it comes from Ivey's response yesterday:

"You know I can tell you that the NCAA was pretty clear in their letter that told us exactly what we were doing which is what we reported on that we were counting all hours versus degree applicable hours. And that we needed to strengthen our processes and procedures around that certification process. And obviously that did not occur."

In 2014, THEY WERE ******* TOLD IT WAS WRONG AND DID NOTHING! NOTHING!

This is a direct shot at the admins back then, what a waste.

And of course, the "oh, it wasn't me,"

<However one of them, Matt Fenley, who retired as Senior Associate A.D. for Compliance in February of 2019 tells the Dallas Morning News that academic certification was not his responsibility.>

Here is the article referenced where Fenley pretty much denies everything and says it never occurred to anyone to double-check the work cause "That was his job."

G-DAMMIT.

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college-sports/2020/05/20/they-gotta-point-the-finger-at-somebody-former-stephen-f-austin-compliance-leader-argues-hes-not-to-blame-for-ncaa-issues/
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SFAXE93
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8:55a, 5/21/20
Yes, that's the thing I can't get around about all this, you were actually told back in 2014 to fix it and to avoid all of this.

There must have been multiple changing of the guard or passing the buck on the responsibility for that message to have been totally ignored or not delivered at all to the people responsible.

Was it never amplified that hey this is kind of a big deal here?
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RedRiverLa
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In reply to MasterAxe • 9:04a, 5/21/20
MasterAxe said:
This might be the part that pisses me off the most, it comes from Ivey's response yesterday:

"You know I can tell you that the NCAA was pretty clear in their letter that told us exactly what we were doing which is what we reported on that we were counting all hours versus degree applicable hours. And that we needed to strengthen our processes and procedures around that certification process. And obviously that did not occur."

In 2014, THEY WERE ******* TOLD IT WAS WRONG AND DID NOTHING! NOTHING!

This is a direct shot at the admins back then, what a waste.

And of course, the "oh, it wasn't me,"

<However one of them, Matt Fenley, who retired as Senior Associate A.D. for Compliance in February of 2019 tells the Dallas Morning News that academic certification was not his responsibility.>

Here is the article referenced where Fenley pretty much denies everything and says it never occurred to anyone to double-check the work cause "That was his job."

G-DAMMIT.

https://www.dallasnews.com/sports/college-sports/2020/05/20/they-gotta-point-the-finger-at-somebody-former-stephen-f-austin-compliance-leader-argues-hes-not-to-blame-for-ncaa-issues/

'It wasnt me'? Wow. That sums up the previous culture. I squarely put it on the AD too. He and his department were warned and did nothing. Just sad.
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PurpleOut
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9:07a, 5/21/20
Staff
I've been mostly just sad and disappointed, but now it's starting to turn into anger. Knowing a lot of people in that past regime and how they operated and treated people and fans outside of their group. Everything in that article sums them up.
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wahlwesle
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9:14a, 5/21/20
I am irritated by the comments from people on social media and elsewhere. They obviously don't know the details of what went wrong or even how APR is calculated (I didn't know at first either and had to look it up). There are those claiming the school has been up to no good and are glad we "got caught," or are saying that our athletes are dumb. Neither is true, and I think the school needs to do better to help the general public with little knowledge of the requirements understand it better. No generalizations to try and sugarcoat it, just simple facts.
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Pilotgirl
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In reply to wahlwesle • 9:18a, 5/21/20
This 100% not the student's fault. And that is what upsets me most.
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SFAJack_76
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In reply to wahlwesle • 9:25a, 5/21/20
wahlwesle said:
I am irritated by the comments from people on social media and elsewhere. They obviously don't know the details of what went wrong or even how APR is calculated (I didn't know at first either and had to look it up). There are those claiming the school has been up to no good and are glad we "got caught," or are saying that our athletes are dumb. Neither is true, and I think the school needs to do better to help the general public with little knowledge of the requirements understand it better. No generalizations to try and sugarcoat it, just simple facts.
I agree. Of course, they aren't interested in facts. I have stopped engaging with them, even though it feels like I should to defend our student-athletes and coaches. Those that aren't interested in facts will get bored and go on to the next thing rapidly. We just need to beat them in the classroom and on the field in the future.
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MasterAxe
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In reply to wahlwesle • 9:26a, 5/21/20
wahlwesle said:
I am irritated by the comments from people on social media and elsewhere. They obviously don't know the details of what went wrong or even how APR is calculated (I didn't know at first either and had to look it up). There are those claiming the school has been up to no good and are glad we "got caught," or are saying that our athletes are dumb. Neither is true, and I think the school needs to do better to help the general public with little knowledge of the requirements understand it better. No generalizations to try and sugarcoat it, just simple facts.
True: Our athletes are not dumb

HOWEVER, It appears we were informed in 2014 and yet we did nothing. This means we actually were up to no good.

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SFAJack_76
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In reply to PurpleOut • 9:27a, 5/21/20
PurpleOut said:
I've been mostly just sad and disappointed, but now it's starting to turn into anger. Knowing a lot of people in that past regime and how they operated and treated people and fans outside of their group. Everything in that article sums them up.
Agree, but at some point the anger is not productive. I am choosing to address the anger with meaningful, purposeful action to support our current leadership to help them achieve their visions for SFA.
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wahlwesle
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9:51a, 5/21/20
I am sure I am getting way ahead of myself, but what does this do in terms of a potential conference change over the next decade. Will other conferences not even want to consider us because of this, or will it disappear once the dust settles?
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SFAXE93
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10:12a, 5/21/20
I keep getting asked, do the players get to keep those championship rings?

How on earth would the NCAA collect all those even if they wanted?
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BigJack85
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10:14a, 5/21/20
No way. I can't imagine. I'd say I lost mine......
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MasterAxe
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In reply to SFAXE93 • 10:17a, 5/21/20
SFAXE93 said:
I keep getting asked, do the players get to keep those championship rings?

How on earth would the NCAA collect all those even if they wanted?
I saw Ty Charles post on Twitter a picture of his rings.

GOOD LUCK enforcing some policy where he has to return them
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