Faculty Senate Meeting

18,793 Views | 129 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by TallTexan
SFAJack_76
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Rollo, your posts are interesting. The indignant comment about the barbers chair sounds like sarcasm. If it's not sarcasm, that tells me a lot.

Trusting you are interested in learning facts about the athletic department, I encourage you to contact Ryan Ivey telling him you have some questions that you would like to sit down with him to discuss. I guarantee that he would love to do that. However, if you are one of those that will just look him in the face and call him a liar, like some have, don't do it. Ryan is one of the most ethical people I have ever met. For example, he insisted on self reporting transgressions of previous administrations knowing full well the ramifications would be harsh, and if we didn't self report, chances are it never would be discovered by the NCAA. He was very clear, and supported by the university administration, that SFA athletics was going to do things the moral and ethical way.

Hopefully, you aren't one of those that would like to talk to Ryan, but say that "it just wouldn't look good." I will never understand that level of thinking. That certainly is not how organizations get better. And, if you support any faculty member that publicly castigates a student simply because he or she is an athlete, then don't waste Ryan's time. An adult that does that to a kid should not be teaching at any place at any level. They clearly have lost their way.

Finally Rollo, I'm sure you have seen the Elevate SFA video. Very well done, I think. Watch the part done by Avery Brittingham. Then watch it again. And, again. That is what the SFA athletic department is about. There are many, many stories of kids that would not be at SFA, and making appropriate progress to a degree, if not for athletics. Learn about what goes on in athletics that has nothing to do with winning games, but everything to do with helping them to become successful adults. Get to know the kids. Many are first generation, with single or no parents, growing up dirt poor. Athletics is the door to their way to a better life for them and their family.
Jacks4460
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76 your last paragraph is why I give my money and time to SFA athletics.. Some of our student athletes have never ever slept in their own bed until they got to Hall 20. They either slept on a couch/pallet/in same bed with a sibling.. Now in the near future they will be in the NFL representing our beloved University.. It's all about helping young kids succeed in life and sports is their avenue to that degree or professional career..
sfajack05
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Rollo Thomassie said:

Well, here's how I see it. Some of you folks believe that a robust and well-funded athletic program is necessary for enrollment growth. On the other hand, I believe that the status of SFA's athletic program has little impact on enrollment. Indeed, if you eliminated athletics, I don't think it would make much difference in SFA's size. SFA's athletic budget has been as big or bigger than that of its sister universities for years, and our enrollment has remained stagnant. What makes you all believe that continued largesse will make much of a difference? Where's the evidence? For most universities, athletics is an expensive luxury that they can ill afford.

As for the Sam Houston analogy, it's my understanding that the key to its enrollment growth is its willingness to sell its soul to the online education devil, a decision that will, in the long run, benefit neither athletics nor academics.

Let me get this straight: SFA bought its athletes a barber's chair? How much did that cost? Any organization that can indulge in such superfluous purchases has too much money.


Distance education is here to stay so SFA should embrace it more and expand it. Reach more potential students to increase enrollment to generate more revenue for academics. Not everyone's situation allows them to go in person or live on campus.
TallTexan
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PurpleOut said:

Rollo Thomassie said:

Let me get this straight: SFA bought its athletes a barber's chair? How much did that cost? Any organization that can indulge in such superfluous purchases has too much money.

Man, life must be nice for you if you're complaining about a $500 barbers chair so that our athletes can cut each others hair for free so they don't gotta spend money on it.


Think about this, you're complaining that our university made it easier for our athletes cutting each others hair for free.

Meanwhile, the new stem building has art in front of it that runs atleast 3k, guess we better shut down the science department.
Rollo Thomassie
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I was unaware that you needed a barber's chair to cut hair. Perhaps that's why my wife does such a bad job when she cuts my hair. I guess I could ask my department chair to buy a barber's chair for us too. Do you suppose she would spring for one?

In all seriousness, surely you all must understand how bad it looks for the athletic program to buy a barber's chair when the administration told the rest of us to watch every penny.
SFAJack_76
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Rollo Thomassie said:

I was unaware that you needed a barber's chair to cut hair. Perhaps that's why my wife does such a bad job when she cuts my hair. I guess I could ask my department chair to buy a barber's chair for us too. Do you suppose she would spring for one?

In all seriousness, surely you all must understand how bad it looks for the athletic program to buy a barber's chair when the administration told the rest of us to watch every penny.


So, are you going to set up a meeting with Ivey to ask your questions?

Have you watched the AB video?
TallTexan
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Rollo Thomassie said:

I was unaware that you needed a barber's chair to cut hair. Perhaps that's why my wife does such a bad job when she cuts my hair. I guess I could ask my department chair to buy a barber's chair for us too. Do you suppose she would spring for one?

In all seriousness, surely you all must understand how bad it looks for the athletic program to buy a barber's chair when the administration told the rest of us to watch every penny.
Maybe it's just your mishapen head?

Surely you must understand how bad it looks to nitpick a chair? How about all those sculptures that provide no utility, are solely for looks?

Face it, you don't want SFA to have nice things and it bugs you when anyone doesn't run each line item in their budget by you.
Rollo Thomassie
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Not to be contrarian, but online education is the biggest scam in higher education. Most students and faculty hate online classes. Those students who take online classes usually do so because it's so easy to cheat, it's less work, and the grades are higher. Those faculty who teach online classes do so because it's so little work. One colleague called it a "turnkey operation." Don't believe me? Get a few drinks in a professor or student who touts online classes and ask them why off the record.

I taught one online class, and I'll never do it again. Sure, it was maybe a quarter of the work of a face-to-face class. I would have felt bad about that if the university hadn't been underpaying me all these years. I couldn't stop the students from cheating, so I made the exams open note. Guess what? They actually did worse on the exams because they figured there was no point in studying after all, it was open note.

Not long ago I made some comment about the Boston Tea Party to an SFA grad I know. She didn't have clue what it was. When I asked her if she ever took any history, she said that she had and had gotten an A. So why hadn't she heard of the Boston Tea Party? "Oh," she said. "I took it online." She went on to explain that the professor had the students answer some fill-in-the-blank questions from a textbook. She filled out the required word and promptly forgot it. That's online education.

Finally, people who tell me that we need online education for students who can't come to SFA's campus can never answer this question for me: Why would some kid from Eagle Pass want to take an online class through SFA when he or she can take one more cheaply elsewhere?
Jacks4460
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I agree with zero of what you are saying..Go to Kats fan.com
BigJack85
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Rollo Thomassie said:

Not to be contrarian, but online education is the biggest scam in higher education. Most students and faculty hate online classes. Those students who take online classes usually do so because it's so easy to cheat, it's less work, and the grades are higher. Those faculty who teach online classes do so because it's so little work. One colleague called it a "turnkey operation." Don't believe me? Get a few drinks in a professor or student who touts online classes and ask them why off the record.

I taught one online class, and I'll never do it again. Sure, it was maybe a quarter of the work of a face-to-face class. I would have felt bad about that if the university hadn't been underpaying me all these years. I couldn't stop the students from cheating, so I made the exams open note. Guess what? They actually did worse on the exams because they figured there was no point in studying after all, it was open note.

Not long ago I made some comment about the Boston Tea Party to an SFA grad I know. She didn't have clue what it was. When I asked her if she ever took any history, she said that she had and had gotten an A. So why hadn't she heard of the Boston Tea Party? "Oh," she said. "I took it online." She went on to explain that the professor had the students answer some fill-in-the-blank questions from a textbook. She filled out the required word and promptly forgot it. That's online education.

Finally, people who tell me that we need online education for students who can't come to SFA's campus can never answer this question for me: Why would some kid from Eagle Pass want to take an online class through SFA when he or she can take one more cheaply elsewhere?


I agree with you that online education is a scam, in most cases. There is a fit for it in the corporate world. Less so in higher education where part of goal is information pollination.
sfajack05
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Rollo Thomassie said:

Not to be contrarian, but online education is the biggest scam in higher education. Most students and faculty hate online classes. Those students who take online classes usually do so because it's so easy to cheat, it's less work, and the grades are higher. Those faculty who teach online classes do so because it's so little work. One colleague called it a "turnkey operation." Don't believe me? Get a few drinks in a professor or student who touts online classes and ask them why off the record.

I taught one online class, and I'll never do it again. Sure, it was maybe a quarter of the work of a face-to-face class. I would have felt bad about that if the university hadn't been underpaying me all these years. I couldn't stop the students from cheating, so I made the exams open note. Guess what? They actually did worse on the exams because they figured there was no point in studying after all, it was open note.

Not long ago I made some comment about the Boston Tea Party to an SFA grad I know. She didn't have clue what it was. When I asked her if she ever took any history, she said that she had and had gotten an A. So why hadn't she heard of the Boston Tea Party? "Oh," she said. "I took it online." She went on to explain that the professor had the students answer some fill-in-the-blank questions from a textbook. She filled out the required word and promptly forgot it. That's online education.

Finally, people who tell me that we need online education for students who can't come to SFA's campus can never answer this question for me: Why would some kid from Eagle Pass want to take an online class through SFA when he or she can take one more cheaply elsewhere?


That must be your experience at SFA because that's definitely not my experience working in distance ed for nearly 10 years with ISDs, colleges and universities across the state. I get it though. Online teaching or classes isn't for everyone but it's not a scam.

So one student who took an online class didn't know what the Boston tea party was so that one student represents all online education? What about all the people who took in person courses and don't know what the Boston Tea Party is or who think Sam Adams is just a beer?

And guess what? Students are going to try to cheat whether it's in person or online. It's just not an online thing.

As far as why would a student from Eagle Pass take an online class from SFA? Well if the university offers a program that the student is interested in that's a reason.
Pilotgirl
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Exactly....my daughter is getting her MBA through UH-Victoria because of 1. Its online. 2. Very cost effective 3. The program.....it all lined up. Plus, the advisors kept checking in with her before the start of her cohort. Compare that with SFA online program....she said it is just a regurgitation of her undergrad work. She would've preferred SFA. she applied to a couple other places but they were either more expensive or dropped the ball somehow. She never thought "oh, man ....can't wait to go to UHV!!" But the program fit HER and her needs.

So yes, SFA is missing out on students. Plain and simple. Her classes aren't easy & she doesn't cheat. She works 40+ hours a week in the business world and finishes with her 2nd session of the Fall tomorrow. My 40th was last weekend and we celebrated at a fancy hotel in downtown Houston. Both Saturday a.m. and Sunday a.m., she was up by 8 taking her finals. This week, finishing up group projects.

I took one online grad course as part of my masters/specialist degree....well it was hybrid and I really had to work at it because there was so much to do for the course! None were offered for my PhD and several could have been!

I've worked with so many people who have received an online education & are great at what they do. I think it's even more difficult because 9 times out of 10, they have a family, a job...juggling so many different things & that shows me a lot about their work ethic and time management. No, it's not for every program or every learner BUT there are tons of potential students out there for it and SFA is missing the train.
TallTexan
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Pilotgirl said:

Exactly....my daughter is getting her MBA through UH-Victoria because of 1. Its online. 2. Very cost effective 3. The program.....it all lined up. Plus, the advisors kept checking in with her before the start of her cohort. Compare that with SFA online program....she said it is just a regurgitation of her undergrad work. She would've preferred SFA. she applied to a couple other places but they were either more expensive or dropped the ball somehow. She never thought "oh, man ....can't wait to go to UHV!!" But the program fit HER and her needs.

So yes, SFA is missing out on students. Plain and simple. Her classes aren't easy & she doesn't cheat. She works 40+ hours a week in the business world and finishes with her 2nd session of the Fall tomorrow. My 40th was last weekend and we celebrated at a fancy hotel in downtown Houston. Both Saturday a.m. and Sunday a.m., she was up by 8 taking her finals. This week, finishing up group projects.

I took one online grad course as part of my masters/specialist degree....well it was hybrid and I really had to work at it because there was so much to do for the course! None were offered for my PhD and several could have been!

I've worked with so many people who have received an online education & are great at what they do. I think it's even more difficult because 9 times out of 10, they have a family, a job...juggling so many different things & that shows me a lot about their work ethic and time management. No, it's not for every program or every learner BUT there are tons of potential students out there for it and SFA is missing the train.
My Masters program was hybrid at UT. You could do in class or online. Most weekends I drove down for class. Online was still just as hard as in class. We had students from Greece, Korea, India, and others.

If the programs are good and the marketing is good, students will show up.
TallTexan
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As far as the "didn't know the Boston tea party", well, you'd have to sleep through 5th grade history, 8th grade, & 11th too, in addition to taking it online in college and ending up with a poor prof.
AxeEm99
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Rollo,
I disagree with A LOT of what you are saying and complaining about. Katfans.com and especially Kat1990, millineumkat, and kakat10 would love to engage with you!

Just for the record, I chose the all online option for my Master's Degree instead of in person. I was very concerned at first about not being physically in a classroom. It was no walk in the park as you seem to think! I had a great experience in the long run, and would do it again for both of my degrees knowing what I know now.
I was almost iimmediately promoted at work, and my boss never questioned the validity of my degree!!
BigJack85
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Agenda is out for the Sunday meeting. Not sure what to make of it. Someone else please weigh in.
nacluth
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In the meeting where they didn't fire Gordon, they set up a special audit of the budget. Financials being one of the main charges put against Gordon by the faculty - not impropriety but more of an ineptness in budgeting. (My take from what I heard)

This is the results of that special independent audit. They will hear the results in open session then go into closed session to discuss it and any of the fallout pertaining to it. There will also be counsel by lawyers regarding any open or potential cases against the school. (The recently let go VP of finance has been public about his disagreement with the ending of his job and his consideration of legal remedy.) And there is at least the opportunity to reprimand, penalize or dismiss a senior level employee including the president.

My general take is that there will be very little to come out of the meeting except maybe some minor budgetary oversights that will be addressed. It is doubtful, unless something major has been uncovered, that there will be any substantial BOR votes in this meeting. But, stay tuned.
TallTexan
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BigJack85 said:

Agenda is out for the Sunday meeting. Not sure what to make of it. Someone else please weigh in.
Hard to really tell. My guess on the employment part "they put literally everyone in there to make it tough to tell who's job they're discussing. Could be regarding raises, or something else too.

Also looks like they're gonna get the results of that financial audit they asked for.

The most concerning thing is always the litigation. Could be stemming from Prof's saying they felt mistreated or something else entirely.
BigJack85
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nacluth said:

In the meeting where they didn't fire Gordon, they set up a special audit of the budget. Financials being one of the main charges put against Gordon by the faculty - not impropriety but more of an ineptness in budgeting. (My take from what I heard)

This is the results of that special independent audit. They will hear the results in open session then go into closed session to discuss it and any of the fallout pertaining to it. There will also be counsel by lawyers regarding any open or potential cases against the school. (The recently let go VP of finance has been public about his disagreement with the ending of his job and his consideration of legal remedy.) And there is at least the opportunity to reprimand, penalize or dismiss a senior level employee including the president.

My general take is that there will be very little to come out of the meeting except maybe some minor budgetary oversights that will be addressed. It is doubtful, unless something major has been uncovered, that there will be any substantial BOR votes in this meeting. But, stay tuned.


Sounds reasonable
nacluth
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That language is in every agenda. It's just to cover bases. There is no direct target of the line item.
SFAJack_76
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nacluth said:

That language is in every agenda. It's just to cover bases. There is no direct target of the line item.
Correct. State requirement.
SFAJack_76
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nacluth said:

In the meeting where they didn't fire Gordon, they set up a special audit of the budget. Financials being one of the main charges put against Gordon by the faculty - not impropriety but more of an ineptness in budgeting. (My take from what I heard)

This is the results of that special independent audit. They will hear the results in open session then go into closed session to discuss it and any of the fallout pertaining to it. There will also be counsel by lawyers regarding any open or potential cases against the school. (The recently let go VP of finance has been public about his disagreement with the ending of his job and his consideration of legal remedy.) And there is at least the opportunity to reprimand, penalize or dismiss a senior level employee including the president.

My general take is that there will be very little to come out of the meeting except maybe some minor budgetary oversights that will be addressed. It is doubtful, unless something major has been uncovered, that there will be any substantial BOR votes in this meeting. But, stay tuned.
Spot on.
wahlwesle
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Rollo Thomassie said:

On the other hand, most professors haven't had raises in at least two years, and SFA's faculty are already the second lowest paid professors among public universities in the state. This says something about SFA's priorities, which would be fine if SFA was a summer athletic camp, but it's not - it's an institution of learning that supposed to serve all its students.


If the pay is so much lower at SFA than comparable schools, why isn't there mass exodus among the faculty? Seems to me that if everyone is so unhappy, they would look for other opportunities outside of SFA.

The profitability of an institution does not necessarily mean higher wages. Markets drive the wage of an employee, not how much money is available to pay said employee.

Also, would paying all faculty more automatically result in higher enrollment?
NacMan
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wahlwesle said:


If the pay is so much lower at SFA than comparable schools, why isn't there mass exodus among the faculty? Seems to me that if everyone is so unhappy, they would look for other opportunities outside of SFA.

The profitability of an institution does not necessarily mean higher wages. Markets drive the wage of an employee, not how much money is available to pay said employee.

Also, would paying all faculty more automatically result in higher enrollment?

There has been a mass exodus of faculty and staff. I know of several departments and staff offices where 50%+ have left in the past few years. A typical cycle seen at SFA is that a replacement gets hired to fill a position, and that replacement then leaves after 3 or 4 years because the pay is low and zero raises are offered. Then another replacement gets hired and the cycle repeats. I personally know a staff (not faculty) member who won multiple awards from the university for her work but left SFA because she was only paid $35,000 per year and was informed that she would see zero pay increase for potentially several years. SFA's loss.

Paying faculty and staff the same salaries as paid by schools like Tarleton State or Lamar University won't automatically result in higher enrollment at SFA, but it would improve morale which in turn will improve job performance and productivity across the university. And it would save money by decreasing the constant turnover.
TallTexan
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I find it interesting that apparently there is a need to pay the president, who we provide housing, on level with peer schools, but not the faculty.

Talk about some broken logic.
 
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